Rafal Karpinski: Let's start by introducing our readers to who are the Kliszczaks? How did they appear in our folk culture, where do they reside and what distinguishes them from other cultural groups of Polish highlanders?
Catherine Ceklarz: The very history of the name of the Kliszczaks (Kliszcze highlanders) is interesting. It is an artificial creation, coined by 19th century travelers and folklorists. The first author in whose texts it appears was Ludwik Zejszner. It can also be found in Wincenty Pol. Zejszner recorded in his diary from his trip to the Tatra Mountains (the first half of the 19th century) that he was among people who had "their breeches pressed into a klyszcz." And that's why they are called Kliszczak people. Although to this day we do not know exactly what this meant. No less, it is assumed that the name of the Klishchak highlanders derives from an element of their traditional attire.
Nowadays, there are several theories in the public space that try to explain the origin of the name; from the tight cut of the pants; from the alleged crayfish tick-shaped decorations embroidered on the thighs; from the slits on the legs, as well as from the ornamentation of these slits. However, these theories are not supported either by the oldest photographs that have survived or by period documents. Therefore, there are researchers who are inclined to believe that the name Kliszczacy was coined by travelers of the 19th century, and then perpetuated, by their successors, in the 20th century.
In this context, it is puzzling that when, after World War II, Krakow ethnographers led by Professor Roman Reinfuss arrived in the area treated as Kliszczacy, the name was unknown to the locals. They did not identify with the name Kliszczacy. Today this situation has changed, the Kliszczacy highlanders have adopted the term and are happy to use it while building their own local identity.
KC: The area considered to be kliszczacki is vast and difficult to define precisely, as a diverse set of kliszczacki villages are mentioned in numerous ethnographic publications. The heart of the region is the villages located around Tokarnia, Skomielna Czarna, Bogdanówka, Trzebunia, Pcim and Lubnia. And looking at the map of Poland, Kliszczaks should be sought in the triangle between Myślenice, Rabka-Zdrój and Sucha Beskidzka. When delineating the spatial boundaries, it is worth noting that at the same time it is a "transitional area," as ethnographers call it, between what is highland and what is no longer highland, i.e. Lachian (in this case, highlanders border on western Krakowiaks).
Therefore, the Kliszczaks are a very diverse group, especially in terms of costume. It accumulates influences from the north, i.e. Cracow, and from the south, i.e. Podhale. In addition, it should be remembered that north-south trade routes passed through the area described above, which was conducive to the appearance of various elements of urban costume.
RK: So why do you have such an interest in the Klishchaks and their costume, since this is such a heterogeneous group?
KC: The Klishchaks are not the only cultural group you deal with academically. For years I have been the editor of a series of monographs: Folk Culture of the Highlanders. It was initiated by, unfortunately, the late Dr. Urszula Janicka-Krzywda. Eight volumes have already come out, and the ninth volume is about to leave the printer. The target number of volumes is to be twelve, each dedicated to a different highlander group. The books are intended to cover the entire Polish highland community and provide its historical and cultural panorama. And the Kliszczcy are a component part of that panorama.
In 2015, when the volume on the Kliszczki was published, I received many emails, requests, phone calls to help reach archival materials from a particular village, or to solve an ethnographic problem for the team, or to consult doubts about the course of long-forgotten customs.
RK: So the Klishchak highlanders themselves are looking for their cultural past, want to recreate and reconstruct it?
KC: Yes, but it should be noted here that these searches do not concern the entire region, which, for the purposes of systematics, has been, so to speak, artificially created by ethnographers, but a specific village. Therefore, the local regionalists involved are looking for information about themselves, but not as highlanders of Kliszcze, but as Pcimians, Trzebunians, residents of Skomielna, etc. In the highland dialect, people are said to come from stela (meaning from here). Archival searches often focus on the past of a particular family, village community or parish. Looking for traces about one's ancestors builds identity and uncovers history on a micro scale, rather than the whole country.
RK: Coming back to the main protagonist of our conversation, that is, the regional costume of the Kliszczs, or more precisely, the way of its restoration. Please tell us what such a process of "cultural archeology" looks like? How to reconstruct something so ephemeral, easily damaged, current influences of fashions and external factors, as clothing?
KC: Since 2017, the Malopolska Cultural Center "Sokol" in Nowy Sacz has launched a massive project on the documentation of the costumes of all ethnographic groups in Malopolska. As part of this project, one of the volumes of the study (the fifth) has been dedicated to the Zagorzan and Kliszcz Highlanders. I was tasked with describing the Kliszczaks - a difficult subject, since few researchers have previously dealt with this issue due to this, so characteristic, diversity of them. I started with archival research to find the oldest existing accounts of the costume and iconographic examples. I was able to access a lot of interesting material, including two colorful (rather than monochromatic) paintings from the 19th century. The first is "A Highlander with a Highlander Woman from the Myslenice area" from 1811 by Michal Stachiewicz. It depicts the original version of the outfit, with a noticeable predominance of the white color. And the second, slightly later, from 1868, "Kobziarz from the Polish Mountains" from the Myslenice area by Wojciech Gerson, showing the attire of a mature man. We also managed to reach the oldest description of the outfit - an anonymous journal of an ethnographic trip from 1910. Thanks to this difference in time between the oldest iconography and the description, we can indicate the modifications that have occurred in the costumes over more than half a century.
My subsequent search was aided by ethnographic collections gathered in museums: the Independence Museum in Myślenice (the former Regional Museum "Greek House") and the Ethnographic Museum in Cracow, as well as the Wladyslaw Orkan Museum in Rabka-Zdroj, where I found photographic documentation, but also exhibits and their descriptions, which allowed me to reconstruct the costume.
RK: So, is the outfit in which you can be seen during the presentation of the fifth volume in the series on the regional costumes of Malopolska a reconstruction of the 19th-century garments of the Clisztian highland women?
KC: Not exactly. Because, in this case, I followed in the footsteps of the aforementioned local regionalists and recreated costume from the Rabka-Zdroj area - the place where I was born and where I live. The Rabka Museum has a rich collection of costumes that have been acquired since the post-war years for the institution's resources. These are mainly items of clothing from the Rabka area. Thanks to these finds, I have recreated a woman's outfit from the beginning of the last century.
RK: How did the reconstruction of this costume come about? Do you have a tailor's "spark" in you, or was it helped by some professional who sews folk costumes on a daily basis?
KC: In my student days I happened to make two or three corsets on my own. This time, with a friend ethnomusicologist Dr. Dorota Majerczyk, we wanted the costumes recreated for publication to be sewn by a professional. Our colleague, Patryk Rutkowski, an ethnographer after studying ethnology in Cracow, helped us. Fascinated by folk costumes, he founded a company (Szafaetnografa), where he sews folk costumes from all over Poland. Thanks to his expertise and rich home archive, he helps folk groups create an outfit from a particular region. And it was to him that we went for help. Based on the documentation we collected, where everything was mapped, mapped and counted down "every bead," Patrick sewed the elements of the costume. First of all, shirts, which differ from the well-known Podhale ones in that they have buff sleeves and different decorations on the chest, as well as a different finish on the collar and cuffs. A skirt was also created, with a batten, sewn on with haberdashery and decorated with pinches (darts). The fabric used to sew it was similar in texture and pattern to that of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Another element was the corset, the most eye-catching part of a woman's outfit. My reconstructed copy is not tied with a ribbon, but fastened with hooks. The corset is decorated with loop stitching in the shape of, among other things, ears of grain. The most commonly used fabric for sewing corsets was and is velvet, but I opted for the brown cloth used in the past. But it could just as well have been black, green or maroon. The last item was a stocking - rarely seen today. It was tulle, thin, beautifully decorated with embroidery and cut in serrations at the bottom. In festive attire it was used only for representational purposes. The richness of the embroidery showed the wealth of the owner's wallet. By the way, it is worth mentioning the old canon of female beauty - the wider she was in the hips, the more beautiful she was considered to be. Therefore, skirts were sewn from several widths of fabric nippled at the waist. In addition, two or three other (older) skirts (called aprons) were worn under the skirt, which gave the intended effect - the woman looked magnificent. In our costume, we also recreated the white aprons with decorative serrations overlapping the kierpokas.
RK: So, how do you wear it?
KC: From a practical point of view - uncomfortable. Nowadays we are accustomed to a different, casual outfit sewn from fabrics that are nice to the touch. Meanwhile, in regional dress, the fabrics are heavy and thick, as they were primarily meant to protect against the cold. It is worth remembering that highland women did not use personal underwear until World War II, so the number of layers they put on was intended to provide them with thermal comfort.
RK: To fully appreciate the qualities of this outfit, is it necessary to dress the way highland women did a hundred years ago?
KC: (laughs)
RK: Are the costumes sewn for folklore groups, housewife circles recreated with similar care?
KC: A good question with no clear answer. Wheel to wheel and team to team are not equal. Sometimes instructors take care of details and consult with specialists. They search for archival materials on their own, especially photos from specific localities, so that what is sewn now corresponds to the reality of a hundred, a hundred and fifty years ago. But not everyone is so ambitious. It happens that elements of costumes are sometimes copied from completely different regions. In the foothills area, the most common "calculated" is the Podhale costume. Another kind of practice is the so-called "uniforms", i.e. identical outfits for all girls in the ensemble. It also happens that KGW members have identical skirts, shirts and headscarves. What is completely forgotten in these activities is that attire in the past (as it is today) was meant to help one stand out from the crowd and attract the eyes of others (especially men). Every girl wanted to be better than the others. Consequently, there was no question of identical outfits. To this day, you can still see situations that if two ladies come to a wedding party wearing the same creation, one of them immediately disappears to change. Identical creations provide an opportunity for comparison, and there is a fear of coming off worse than the other person. This is another reason why diversity was also valued in the past.
Returning to the ensembles, contemporary sewn costumes no longer have so many layers and skirts, nor are they so heavy and uncomfortable, as one would not be able to dance freely on stage in them. Regardless, some ensembles try to preserve the cut, fabric and set of individual costume elements in such a way that the overall look is as shown in archival photographs.
RK: Finally, let's return to the thread of the search for their own traditions by the residents of Klyuchar villages and towns. When visiting the area today, at ceremonies, weddings, weddings, or in church, do we encounter ladies in costumes similar to the one you recreated?
KC: While this is often the case in Podhale, a very tourism-oriented region where costume is treated as a "tourist product," it is somewhat different in regions far from Zakopane. Here, on everyday days you will occasionally meet people in regional costumes. On the other hand, for special celebrations such as Christmas, Easter or Corpus Christi, regional attire can be seen more often. Regional costumes are worn mainly by regionalists, members of bands or the Podhale Association, as well as unaffiliated lovers of the region's folk culture. The general population, on the other hand, dresses according to the fashion found throughout the country. The renaissance of interest in one's own past and culture, including costume, does not always translate into ownership. And the reason is sometimes very simple - regional costume is relatively expensive, requiring an investment of several thousand zlotys. Besides, in the past it was also such - it showed the wealth of the owner. The best example are beads worth about 5 thousand zlotys for one string, which really "fat" carpenters could afford.
RK: Thank you very much for the interview.
